Comments on Arminian Chronicles: James White's Response on Molinism

"...scripture declares that righeousness and justi...

2009-11-05T08:47:56.407-05:00

"...scripture declares that righeousness and justice are the foundation of His throne. In other words, God dosn't *outsovereign* justice."

Exactly. A true justice without partiality towards certain people (1 Pet 1:17, Rom 2:11, Eph 6:9, Col 3:25).

Dan said: "So if He knew what we would do in the c...

2009-11-04T19:16:00.226-05:00

Dan said:
"So if He knew what we would do in the circumstances we will be in, why is it hard to accept that He knows what we would do in other circumstances?"

Its not a matter of it being hard to accept - its a matter of what is in fact reality, what is in fact truth.

Those hypothetical cirucmstances are NOT reality. They did not happen and will not happen.

He knows what we will do in the actual circumstances we face because we actually face those circumstances and they can be foreknown.

THAT is foreknowledge - knowing something that DOES happen before it happens.

One of you commenters is quite close when he said:

"God's knowledge does not cause our actions; rather our actions cause God's knowledge."

I would amend the last part of that to say "our actions provide something for God to foreknow".

Team A beats team B in a soccer game, is it foreknowledge to know that team B would have beaten team A had circumstance been different and team B had scored more goals than team A?

That is not foreknowledge - that is "what if..." and is the realm of the fiction writer.

Josh, You said: Point b also disarms the next po...

2009-11-04T18:55:18.808-05:00

Josh,

You said:

Point b also disarms the next postulate,

"P6: God's sovereignty is inconsistent with anything outside of God limiting His options"

Which is an incoherent statement, given that God Himself was the One who gave the creatures some degree of autonomy. In other words, if God chooses to work through libertarian choices sometimes rather than irresistibly decreeing all 'choices,' then this was a decision that God Himself made, and hence not at all contrary to or inconsistent with His sovereignty.

In addition, scripture declares that righeousness and justice are the foundation of His throne. In other words, God dosn't *outsovereign* justice.

God be with you,
Dan

Dear Onesimus, I agree that multiple universes do...

2009-11-04T18:52:44.439-05:00

Dear Onesimus,

I agree that multiple universes don't exist, but God knows what would happen in them as if they did.

You said: We face a circumstance and we decide according to THAT circumstance and God already knew what that decision would be.

So if He knew what we would do in the circumstances we will be in, why is it hard to accept that He knows what we would do in other circumstances?

God be with you,
Dan

White displays a poor understanding of logic in mo...

2009-11-03T10:43:58.669-05:00

White displays a poor understanding of logic in more areas than MK in relation to LFW,

"P5: In any given circumstance, our hypothetical free choices limit God's options"

White's error in logic here is evident on two levels, God's freedom isn't limited by LFW since:

a.) God is perfectly capable of forcing the issue (overriding our wills) if He wishes, and

b.) God was the one who chose the option of giving us free will in the first place, rather than make us into pre-programmed machines.

Point b also disarms the next postulate,

"P6: God's sovereignty is inconsistent with anything outside of God limiting His options"

Which is an incoherent statement, given that God Himself was the One who gave the creatures some degree of autonomy. In other words, if God chooses to work through libertarian choices sometimes rather than irresistibly decreeing all 'choices,' then this was a decision that God Himself made, and hence not at all contrary to or inconsistent with His sovereignty.

Godismyjudge said... Dear Onesimus, Thanks for ...

2009-11-01T16:54:58.502-05:00

Godismyjudge said...
Dear Onesimus,

Thanks for explaining your views although perhaps we disagree. I not only think God knows what we will do tomorrow, but He also knows what we would do under other circumstances.

God be with you,
Dan

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But Dan,
we make our decisions according to the circumstances that we DO face. We do not make our decisions according to circumstances that we DON'T face.

We are not part of a universe in which there are countless possibilities that all have their own reality. We are not part of multiple universes where all possibilities are acted out by different variations of ourselves.

We face a circumstance and we decide according to THAT circumstance and God already knew what that decision would be.

Dear Bob, Thanks for the on target comment! God ...

2009-10-31T10:47:11.645-04:00

Dear Bob,

Thanks for the on target comment!

God be with you,
Dan

God's knowledge does not cause our actions; rather...

2009-10-31T10:46:19.645-04:00

God's knowledge does not cause our actions; rather our actions cause God's knowledge.

I personally would not say our actions cause God's knowledge; I don't think anything causes God's knowledge (in a strict sense of the word 'cause'). I think the relationship between the event, the truth value of propositions about the event and God's knowledge of the event is logical rather than causal. It's more like the relationship beteen a word and it's definition or mathematical relationships. That get's around 'retro causation' while maintaining that the event precedes God's knowledge in the logical order.

God be with you,
Dan

My pleasure Boss! God be with you, Dan

2009-10-31T10:31:04.674-04:00

My pleasure Boss!

God be with you,
Dan

Dear Onesimus, Thanks for explaining your views...

2009-10-31T10:30:42.423-04:00

Dear Onesimus,

Thanks for explaining your views although perhaps we disagree. I not only think God knows what we will do tomorrow, but He also knows what we would do under other circumstances.

God be with you,
Dan

Dr White seems to confuse certainty with necessity...

2009-10-30T14:38:51.020-04:00

Dr White seems to confuse certainty with necessity. That God forknows x does not cause x to happen. It simply means that it will happen of a certainty. Certainty is a property of persons (in this instance, God), while necessity is a property of propositions. Therefore God knows with certainty the outcome of truly contingent events.

P2: In any given circumstance, people can only do ...

2009-10-30T08:34:09.726-04:00

P2: In any given circumstance, people can only do what God knew they would do

That is a misunderstanding of how middle knowledge works. It should read:

`PS2: In any given circumstance, God knows that people can do x amount of options, but they will do what God knows what they will do.

There is no necessity that requires people can do only one thing. God's knowledge does not cause our actions; rather our actions cause God's knowledge.

Dan, Wonderful response. Thank you for explaining...

2009-10-30T00:13:53.332-04:00

Dan,

Wonderful response. Thank you for explaining this.

Hopefully my previous comment can be stated more s...

2009-10-29T20:25:15.276-04:00

Hopefully my previous comment can be stated more simply by saying that God's foreknowledge involves what man DOES do and not the possibilitites of what man COULD do.

It is foreKNOWLEDGE not foreSPECULATION.

Likewise it IS foreknowledge (knowing beforehand) and not foreordination (manipulating beforehand).

I note thsat White's arguments relate to God's kno...

2009-10-29T20:12:52.716-04:00

I note thsat White's arguments relate to God's knowledge of what man could do under ANY circumstance.

They are considering what God could know regarding every possible action under every possible circumstance.

I see that is a misrpresentaion of the issue. God's foreknowledge is of what man ACTUALLY does under the ACTUAL circumstance that man has faced.

White's arguments seems to address an unlimited hypothetical situations and choices. There is nothing hypothetical about the events that God DOES foreknow.

He has forseen ACTUAL events and actions not an infintie number of hypothetical events and actions