Comments on Arminian Chronicles: Edwards' on Impeccability and Hardening - Argument...

Dan
I am not sure I am following you here.
<...

2008-06-02T18:37:00.000-04:00

Dan
I am not sure I am following you here.

Irresistable Grace=To those whom God calls, conversion is necessary and resistance is impossible.

Is that what you are saying?

Dear Natamllc,

To those whom God calls, con...

2008-06-02T17:58:00.000-04:00

Dear Natamllc,

To those whom God calls, conversion is necessary and resistance is impossible.

God be with you,
Dan

Dan

thanks, I have that.

I was askin...

2008-06-02T16:28:00.000-04:00

Dan

thanks, I have that.

I was asking you to define it seeing you made the comment about it.

Dear Natamllc,

Here's a link to the WCF on ...

2008-06-01T18:15:00.000-04:00

Dear Natamllc,

Here's a link to the WCF on irresistable grace.

link

God be with you,
Dan

Dan,

ok,

define irresistable grace f...

2008-06-01T15:47:00.000-04:00

Dan,

ok,

define irresistable grace for me.

thanks and waiting.

Dear Natamllc,

I believe in total depravity...

2008-06-01T13:56:00.000-04:00

Dear Natamllc,

I believe in total depravity. What I don't believe in is irresistible grace.

God be with you,
Dan

So Dan,

do you stand at total depravity?

2008-05-31T21:40:00.000-04:00

So Dan,

do you stand at total depravity?

Dear Natamllc,

Yep, we can do our best (wit...

2008-05-31T19:15:00.000-04:00

Dear Natamllc,

Yep, we can do our best (without grace) and it's not good enough. That's why we need grace.

Even repentance and faith are not good enough. If God doesn't have mercy, repentance and faith are worthless. But we do need to repent and believe.

God be with you,
Dan

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God...

2008-05-29T19:37:00.000-04:00

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God is what the Scripture teaches.

God defines "our state of being" as evil according to Jesus Himself.

So therefore your entire redress and response "falls" equally short.

Let's say, I try harder next time and actually according to all moral equivalence attain to perfection morally. At that then state of being, I still am short of the Standard equated by God in the verses I cited above.

How then can you reconcile your suppositions?

Your quote: "....I should point out that I think the hardened sinner is responsible (not just for prior sins) but because he's free to choose between sinful options. We choose a sinful action (that we didn't have to choose) and since we are the source of that action, we are responsible for it."

Again, with this any better and at best standard it does not reach the Righteousness by Faith apart from the Law of Righteousness that Christ was sent to obtain for Adam's lost "chosen" race.

Your quote: "The Gospel or new covenant, requires us to have faith in Christ. God couldn't hold us justly accountable for rejecting Christ, without providing enabling grace. Since the Gospel came to fallen mankind (who couldn't have faith on their own), God would be requiring the impossible if He didn't give sufficient grace for people to believe."

I would say you are missing it all together. There is no enabling Grace. God does not require anything from us nor can He. Because of one transgression God cannot require of us what He required Christ to complete, the task for which He was sent and we all can sigh a sigh of relief in that that the Holy Ghost vindicated Him before Heaven itself! Christ is the Savior, period. It is complete. It is entire. It is all God accepts of us and that acceptance by us is attributed as from the Lord Himself and not us. That sets us apart as the Elect of God.

Why?

Consider what Matthew is conveying here when we read this:::>

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
Mat 11:26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Isn't this all hinging on being one of those Predetermined Elect of God among those being reprobate?

Dear Ben,

Thank you for your comments. I a...

2008-05-27T22:32:00.000-04:00

Dear Ben,

Thank you for your comments. I agree with your example, but for full disclosure, I should point out that I think the hardened sinner is responsible (not just for prior sins) but because he's free to choose between sinful options. We choose a sinful action (that we didn't have to choose) and since we are the source of that action, we are responsible for it.

Some would object to this that God holds men accountable for the impossible (i.e. all our options are sinful, none are good). But at the time God gave His commands (i.e. in Eden) obedience wasn't impossible. So God didn't give mankind an impossible command, even though mankind ruined themselves, rendering obedience impossible.

But that's the law... God could have ended the story there, but mercifully He didn't. The Gospel or new covenant, requires us to have faith in Christ. God couldn't hold us justly accountable for rejecting Christ, without providing enabling grace. Since the Gospel came to fallen mankind (who couldn't have faith on their own), God would be requiring the impossible if He didn't give sufficient grace for people to believe.

God be with you,
Dan

This hardening is a removal of "softening" grac...

2008-05-27T09:51:00.000-04:00
This hardening is a removal of "softening" grace. Oddly, it's the exception that proves the rule. The hardened sinner is left in his totally depraved state, because prevenient grace is removed. But this makes no sense without prevenient grace. So hardening is evidence for prevenient grace.

Edwards argues that since hardened sinners cannot do good, they don't have LFW. Since they don't have LFW, and they still are responsible for their sin, LFW and responsibility are unrelated.

I like this. It is strange how Edwards sees this as evidence against LFW since judicial hardening is alwys in response to grace being spurned. So even if the judicially hardened sinner cannot do good while in that state and cannot escape that state wothout God's intervention, he is still rightly being held accountable for spurning God's grace in the first place.

If someone gets drunk they are still responsible for what they do in a drunken stupor even if their ability to choose right from wrong is impaired. This is true because the person decided to get drunk which makes him or her responsible for all that follows.

In a similar way, the one who has continually spurned the gracious work of the Holy Spirit and is given entirely over to his or her own sinful desires (by way of God removing His spurned and rejected grace, see, e.g. Isaiah 5:1-7; cf. 6:8-13), is responsible for all that follows because of freely rejecting and spurning God's grace when it was available. That is why "Today is the day of salvation" and "Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts."

God Bless,
Ben

Comments on Arminian Chronicles: Edwards' on Impeccability and Hardening - Argument...

DanI am not sure I am following you here.<...

Dear Natamllc,To those whom God calls, con...

Danthanks, I have that.I was askin...

Dear Natamllc,Here's a link to the WCF on ...

Dan,ok,define irresistable grace f...

Dear Natamllc,I believe in total depravity...

So Dan,do you stand at total depravity?

Dear Natamllc,Yep, we can do our best (wit...

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God...

Dear Ben,Thank you for your comments. I a...

This hardening is a removal of "softening" grac...

Dan
I am not sure I am following you here.
<...

Dear Natamllc,

To those whom God calls, con...

Dan

thanks, I have that.

I was askin...

Dear Natamllc,

Here's a link to the WCF on ...

Dan,

ok,

define irresistable grace f...

Dear Natamllc,

I believe in total depravity...

So Dan,

do you stand at total depravity?

Dear Natamllc,

Yep, we can do our best (wit...

Dear Ben,

Thank you for your comments. I a...